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okay so i'd like to make sure

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that

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all the

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speakers today

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are available for this discussion so

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that's starting with

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daniel

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and paul

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and uh james

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george

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and

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myself

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and then other people i mean

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everybody will certainly be taking part

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in this but i just want to make sure

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that those people are available

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so we're going to be recording this as

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well and

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i guess this is the view that we'll see

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in the recording

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all right

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uh let's see

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are we ready let me

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yes

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okay

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um so

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thank you this has been at least for me

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uh interesting to hear all the different

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uh presentations today

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and uh it there's

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a lot that strains our credibility our

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cred credulity

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but at the same time

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uh it really needs to be strained

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because there's

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there's uh there's there's there's a lot

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of strong evidence out there

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um so uh let's have a little bit of a

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discussion

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about that

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before we do i'd like to talk about uh

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the host for this part of the

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of the workshop

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that is the symposium

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and that is the society for scientific

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exploration the society for scientific

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exploration

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is a group of scientists who look at

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anomalies they look at scientific

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anomalies that are not necessarily

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accepted by the mainstream and examine

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them

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fairly

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rigorously

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using a thorough scientific approach

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and

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it's it's an organization that i found

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to be absolutely fascinating the the

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conferences for the sse are more

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interesting by far than any those of any

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other organization i've been to

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and so for those of you who may be

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interested i suggest you take a look

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at the ssc the society for scientific

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exploration you can you can find us

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online

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and you can join either as a full member

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as a scientist or laypeople as well

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can join as associate members

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and help the organization also read the

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various uh

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publications of the organization

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organization and there are more symposia

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like this one on other subjects

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also we the journal for scientific

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exploration is a rigorously

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peer-reviewed journal put out by the

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society

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and we are going to uh starting

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immediately after this conference

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issue two calls for papers one is a call

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for papers on

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um

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advanced propulsion

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as discussed in the first part of this

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conference

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and

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a call for papers on advanced energy

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concepts as discussed today and so all

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the speakers in particular are invited

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to submit articles to the uh journal for

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scientific exploration and you'll be

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hearing more about that in the future by

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email

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okay so

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let's uh have our little panel

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discussion here in which we uh go over

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perhaps

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some of the questions that were raised

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today

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and also

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extend

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the the questions to cover related uh

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topics

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and for this panel discussion

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i've got a little

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nasty timer

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which i'll use so that all responses

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from the panel or anybody else please be

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limited to as short as you can

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under a minute if possible but the beep

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will go off after two minutes

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just so that we can have as many

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different

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views as possible

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so the first question that i'd like to

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ask of the panelists and then

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uh have

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the general audience as well uh

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give opinions on is what would it take

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you

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to convince what would it take to

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convince you that there was a genuine

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second law violation what makes you

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skeptical and what would overcome that

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skepticism

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well i'll start i guess um

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from the uh

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from the the lab scale where i generally

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work um

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i i

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want to reiterate that uh applying the

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proper measurement techniques and the

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proper instrumentation

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uh which is uh accepted by

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um

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the

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rigorously adhered to and

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that

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the application of the the correct

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measurement systems uh including

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instrumentation

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including

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the the way

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uh the experiment is uh undertaken and

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especially the provision of

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of control experiments is uh is required

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to convince me

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that there's something there uh what we

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haven't seen

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uh too much in in the uh um or

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emphasized as much as i would like in

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this uh discussion is

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uh is the insta installation or the uh

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the

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uh

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change of the parameters you might say

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to include uh control experiments

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control experiments that

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would normally be considered uh

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to

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from a prosaic source

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so

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that's

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i i try to always emphasize

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um the provision of control experiments

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of course i'm looking at it from the

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macro or the lab scale where it's

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relatively easy to produce uh and

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consider control experiments from the

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might at the micro scale that's a

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different kettle of fish i'll stop there

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daniel

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yeah i'm adding adding on um to that

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i think it would be very useful to have

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not just experiments but a theoretical

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understanding of what's going on

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a black box is good up to a point if

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you've done sufficient number of

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controls

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if you end up buying this device

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powering a

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phone or a tv or something from walmart

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you can probably

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trust it as being a second law violator

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because

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if it's making money and they spend a

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lot of time perfecting the device it

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probably works but if you're coming if

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it's coming straight out of the lab what

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i've been disappointed in in general is

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insufficient theoretical explanations

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for what's going on

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um and it's easy to kind of hide behind

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things if you don't if you don't have

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that

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so the three basic pillars of science

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are physics right now where you have

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theory experiment and numerical

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simulation if all of those come together

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that would be a pretty convincing

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package i think comment on that philip

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anderson came out with an article 30

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years ago in physics today in which he

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said

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that one of the problems in scientific

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research today is that we don't believe

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a phenomena if we don't have a theory

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for it he said that's a mistake we need

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the measurements to lead and the theory

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to follow well yeah it's it's i agree

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with that i think i mean the proof's in

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the pudding i mean the second law is an

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experimental

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fact of nature and therefore only a

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experimental violation of it is

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sufficient to actually bring it down

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but at the same time in terms of

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convincing people

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um what i've found in in

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in my life is that until you have a

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convincing theory plus the experiment

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people aren't going to even look at

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things look at it carefully thank you

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james i think you were going to say

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something yes so

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um according to you know my result we

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now really think pretty convincing there

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are two type of energy processes

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so the title b

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is

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uh have a symmetric structure then

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nearly isothermal utilize heat energy so

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now the reason is that i think uh from

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the implication of this identification

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type b is

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you don't want to say changing second

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law it's like near local second law

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second law is based on idealized gas law

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right

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now you have i think you know remember

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the carnot cycle this is one of the way

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of saying it okay most accepted

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you have this uh kind of cycle is pv you

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know you know this whole thing right

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it's a basic idea like i saw

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so you there you are assuming i think

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it's like of course the particle and

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more all three imagine people volume

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right your 3ds okay

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and there's no concentration of

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symmetric you see the right it's

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considered all freedom right

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and then if you basically ideal gas

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though you cannot close your eye i'm

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gonna apply everywhere now in

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biochemistry we actually have like the

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kinetic

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it's

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is called um

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you know it's well developed uh for in a

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mechanic uh theory is based on certain

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assumptions you couldn't apply that that

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seriously only to

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the cases where you

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uh fit the you know the thing here like

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for example this cannot get um you know

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i'm connecting because here they cannot

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anywhere exactly we teach every year

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cannot apply into hemoglobin that's

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another example right it says though

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because the enzyme have you know it's

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not fit that definition initially okay

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now based on the idea of cash law

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that he tried to close eye to everything

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including when you have a symmetric

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structure now for our proton you you

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don't have three dimension anymore in

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the initial proton in the three

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dimension right you know if you localize

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of course they are like in

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in a liquid water yes they do

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but when they are localized on the

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surface it becomes dimensional

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so your warnings you see

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if pv is not exist anymore

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and then you still doing that thing and

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then basically you get a problem so i

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will say now we can't understand this is

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our natural occurring anywhere we want

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to say hey you know second law you're

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applies into part a

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but type you don't want to say violation

294
00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:38,399
would say if you want to challenge it we

295
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:40,800
say challenge capability or the

296
00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:42,640
universality of second law you don't

297
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:44,480
change the second law okay because

298
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:46,320
second law is well well done it's you

299
00:11:51,030 --> 00:11:48,640
know we see it because you analysis

300
00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:51,040
photos absolutely well

301
00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:53,360
right you know in biochemistry we see uh

302
00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:55,680
some of those photos excellent

303
00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:56,399
yeah

304
00:11:59,350 --> 00:11:58,320
i will say you know make sure that we

305
00:12:02,470 --> 00:11:59,360
understand

306
00:12:05,829 --> 00:12:02,480
uh second apply to type a

307
00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:05,839
but you have a semester be careful okay

308
00:12:09,269 --> 00:12:07,600
yeah you can apply it close your eyes

309
00:12:11,269 --> 00:12:09,279
many projects does then you miss very

310
00:12:12,790 --> 00:12:11,279
important science i will tell them then

311
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:12,800
people hey you know

312
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:14,720
i need to cut you off like we just want

313
00:12:18,629 --> 00:12:16,639
to get on to the next people sure yes

314
00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:18,639
yeah yeah it's

315
00:12:24,230 --> 00:12:21,920
i let me also ask this question to paul

316
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:24,240
uh so what would it take to convince you

317
00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:26,079
that there was a violation and what

318
00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:27,760
would it take to convince you that there

319
00:12:35,829 --> 00:12:33,430
you know

320
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:35,839
and when daniel

321
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:39,839
and and you and i chatted uh you know

322
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:41,120
i've been

323
00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:43,200
i mean i'm not a big second law uh

324
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:45,120
expert honestly

325
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:48,000
so i looked at uh yeah in my mind i kind

326
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:49,680
of gave up on a lot of these second law

327
00:12:54,389 --> 00:12:52,399
things in at least in my area because

328
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:54,399
i look at

329
00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:56,320
just the brownian motion phenomena which

330
00:13:00,629 --> 00:12:57,600
is kind of at the heart of everything

331
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:00,639
i'm doing now here's this

332
00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:03,120
particle sitting in a

333
00:13:07,829 --> 00:13:05,360
constant temperature environment

334
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:07,839
it's transferring its energy to the

335
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:10,480
environment and coming to a stop

336
00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,480
and then the environment is transferring

337
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:14,639
energy back to it giving it kinetic

338
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:17,440
energy and it's a cyclic process of

339
00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:20,240
of losing energy gaining energy energy

340
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:22,480
energy i mean you couldn't develop this

341
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:25,040
model if you said oh i'm going to stick

342
00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:26,720
with the i'm going to follow the second

343
00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:28,399
law and make sure that

344
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:30,959
at each step of time this is uh this is

345
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:32,240
fault so

346
00:13:37,190 --> 00:13:34,000
to me i don't know i kind of see it as a

347
00:13:39,670 --> 00:13:37,200
long time ensemble average um

348
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:39,680
you know requirement not really

349
00:13:44,550 --> 00:13:42,000
something that is really guiding me or

350
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:44,560
helping me you know

351
00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:46,800
find answers to to the to the problems

352
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:48,800
i'm looking at i don't know

353
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:49,760
daniel

354
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:52,320
you know he has a strong opinion on a a

355
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:54,560
deeper in i should say uh you know into

356
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:57,199
these things uh you know i

357
00:14:01,030 --> 00:13:58,880
people ask me you know i say these

358
00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:01,040
things they that violates the

359
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:04,160
the calvin plonkstom statement but but

360
00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:05,680
well yeah i mean you had to violate it

361
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:07,600
just develop the kinetic theory of of

362
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:10,000
the statistical mechanics

363
00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:12,000
so i i'm a little puzzled by the whole

364
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:14,000
conversation in that sense in that at

365
00:14:18,790 --> 00:14:16,560
that level

366
00:14:20,069 --> 00:14:18,800
daniel do you want to respond

367
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:20,079
uh

368
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:21,440
i don't know i don't know what kind of

369
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:22,880
response would be appropriate here i

370
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:24,720
mean i do have strong opinions i may

371
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:28,160
have after all am i not garrett but um

372
00:14:35,829 --> 00:14:30,800
the

373
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:35,839
paul and and

374
00:14:39,670 --> 00:14:38,320
ask the question can you set up a

375
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:39,680
situation

376
00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:41,120
where you're getting work out of your

377
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:42,480
system

378
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:43,440
and

379
00:14:47,189 --> 00:14:44,639
uh

380
00:14:48,389 --> 00:14:47,199
in a cyclic process turning

381
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:48,399
heat

382
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:50,079
into work

383
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:52,959
and and if it keeps going that way and

384
00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:54,480
your system cools and you're getting

385
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:56,399
worked out continuously and it keeps

386
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:57,600
operating

387
00:15:01,750 --> 00:14:59,440
that's pretty much a second law violator

388
00:15:03,829 --> 00:15:01,760
whether you want to say so or not and

389
00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:03,839
and

390
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:09,189
is that is is that possible with your

391
00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:11,760
device that's a simple question

392
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:14,000
can you do that

393
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:16,000
well well i think when we analyze our

394
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:19,120
statistical variables uh we

395
00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:22,079
to me we definitely satisfy the first

396
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:24,000
and second law

397
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:26,320
in terms of the heat and the work and

398
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:27,760
the energy

399
00:15:31,749 --> 00:15:30,480
but on short time scales

400
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:31,759
you know

401
00:15:35,749 --> 00:15:34,800
doesn't seem to be um necessary

402
00:15:38,069 --> 00:15:35,759
right

403
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,079
um but but as

404
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:40,320
garrett i'm sorry to if i'm being asked

405
00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:42,320
to answer i'm kind of exceeding my time

406
00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:44,079
so i'll tell you what i'll back away and

407
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:46,160
save my time for something else

408
00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:47,920
and this this is a discussion that i

409
00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:50,079
believe is going to continue for quite a

410
00:15:59,350 --> 00:15:52,320
while yeah this particular issue so

411
00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:01,430
oh yeah i'm sorry that's right it's late

412
00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:04,000
at night okay

413
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:05,920
well i i share

414
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:08,800
pretty much the the position of daniel

415
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:12,160
uh if we stick to well my answer will be

416
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:14,399
probably a trivial one and

417
00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:16,720
if we stick to the the classical

418
00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:19,040
definition or statement of the second

419
00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:23,199
law the planck and the calculus one

420
00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:25,759
well although i i am more

421
00:16:29,269 --> 00:16:27,680
of a theoretical physicist the only way

422
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:29,279
to to convince me

423
00:16:35,509 --> 00:16:32,480
of a genuine violation of the law

424
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:35,519
is seeing before me a device

425
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:37,199
that when switched off

426
00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:40,000
generates a microscopic current and

427
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:42,240
cools down the the

428
00:16:47,509 --> 00:16:44,399
um the temper the amp the ambient

429
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:47,519
temperature around it and obviously it

430
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:50,480
worked like it must work like this we

431
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:52,800
don't know time limit um

432
00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:54,480
in fact every one of us

433
00:16:58,870 --> 00:16:56,720
i believe will be able to to build a

434
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,880
machine like this one that work like

435
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,800
this but for a limited period of time

436
00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:02,160
take for instance

437
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:04,240
a box with inside the

438
00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:07,280
battery and uh what is called a mr an

439
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:10,000
instant ice pack okay this this device

440
00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:13,120
will produce energy and could puts down

441
00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:15,360
the the ambient heat but

442
00:17:18,789 --> 00:17:17,839
only for a very limited period of time

443
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:18,799
if we

444
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:21,520
are able to to build a machine a small

445
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:23,039
machine that

446
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:25,280
does this work

447
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:26,880
cyclically

448
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:30,559
for me this is a very very good

449
00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:32,080
example of a

450
00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:34,000
machine that convinced me of the

451
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:37,360
violation of the second law

452
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:38,720
thank you

453
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:41,039
um so we need to

454
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:43,039
show cooling

455
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:45,280
um

456
00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:46,880
would other people like to address this

457
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:49,520
issue of of of uh what would convince

458
00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:51,280
you that the second law is violated and

459
00:18:01,029 --> 00:17:58,310
yeah i just wanted to say that uh what

460
00:18:03,230 --> 00:18:01,039
shanwy fans said to us on wednesday and

461
00:18:04,789 --> 00:18:03,240
he's one of the foremost experts on

462
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:04,799
thermodynamics

463
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:06,799
and he told us that hey you know

464
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:08,640
detailed balance

465
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:10,880
that can be broken all the time right

466
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:13,360
it's an ensemble effect and don't worry

467
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:15,679
about the detailed balance so i think

468
00:18:21,110 --> 00:18:18,559
that goes to your work paul

469
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:21,120
and uh what i i kind of heard you saying

470
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:22,000
there

471
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:23,840
so but as far as like

472
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:25,280
demonstrating that you violated the

473
00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:28,240
second law i go with george you know hey

474
00:18:37,990 --> 00:18:31,440
let's have definitive experimental proof

475
00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:39,510
i think it really has to come from the

476
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:41,600
experimental side because

477
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:44,640
entropy is so baked into just every

478
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:46,320
theoretical model we have i mean i think

479
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:48,320
it was opponent we said you know if your

480
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:49,840
law disagrees with experiment your law

481
00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:51,200
is wrong but if your experiment

482
00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:52,720
disagrees with entropy your experiment's

483
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:55,440
wrong and it's so

484
00:18:58,870 --> 00:18:56,880
baked at least how we understand these

485
00:19:00,789 --> 00:18:58,880
laws so either

486
00:19:02,390 --> 00:19:00,799
it requires like fundamentally new laws

487
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:02,400
or there's just like a basic

488
00:19:06,470 --> 00:19:04,000
misunderstanding of our theoretical

489
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:06,480
devices that's going on so i i just i

490
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:08,160
don't see how it would come initially

491
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:10,000
out of the theory i think that's the big

492
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:12,640
mystery you know

493
00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:14,480
dustin i think you were gonna get your

494
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:15,600
hand up

495
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:16,400
sure

496
00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:18,000
um so i'm just gonna build upon what i

497
00:19:22,789 --> 00:19:20,160
talked about before that

498
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:22,799
every model is a tool

499
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:24,400
so when you ask a question and while

500
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:26,720
you're violating

501
00:19:30,549 --> 00:19:29,120
a this model and we've already seen

502
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:30,559
through different presentations that

503
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:32,960
this model has changed the second law

504
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:35,760
has had many different flavors to it

505
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:37,200
um and

506
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:39,600
certainly the pla the common flavor is

507
00:19:43,909 --> 00:19:41,039
that they're talking about a closed

508
00:19:45,750 --> 00:19:43,919
system and in and of itself

509
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:45,760
it says well energy's moving from one

510
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:48,000
thing to another so that sort of

511
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:50,559
gives you an open system so so there's

512
00:19:56,029 --> 00:19:53,039
questions with how the the

513
00:19:58,630 --> 00:19:56,039
principle second law second principle of

514
00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:58,640
thermodynamics is actually couch

515
00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:01,120
um but then you know more importantly

516
00:20:07,029 --> 00:20:04,720
it's that every model is a tool

517
00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:07,039
and that so you're trying to get those

518
00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:09,200
different models to have certain

519
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:11,600
properties and you know conservation of

520
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:13,440
energy is an important property

521
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:17,360
continuity continuous state you know uh

522
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:19,120
physical properties is another important

523
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:22,799
property so so the whole thing is not to

524
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:24,159
the goal is not to say well it's

525
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:27,280
violating uh second law it's more of can

526
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:30,080
you create a model that has we know at

527
00:20:33,830 --> 00:20:31,919
the atomic level we know at the

528
00:20:36,549 --> 00:20:33,840
sub-particle level we know that these

529
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:36,559
things fall apart um there are you know

530
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:38,000
over unity

531
00:20:43,350 --> 00:20:40,080
energy systems out on the road i mean

532
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:43,360
like hho or as maury king says it's

533
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:45,760
really structured water devices that are

534
00:20:49,830 --> 00:20:47,120
actually powering trucks and they're

535
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:49,840
just actually saving money on energy

536
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:52,960
um so we we know that there's lots of

537
00:20:55,669 --> 00:20:54,799
places where our physical models break

538
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:55,679
down

539
00:20:58,710 --> 00:20:57,600
and in all the presentations what i saw

540
00:21:00,870 --> 00:20:58,720
where people were actually pulling

541
00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:00,880
energy out are the same structures that

542
00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:02,960
i see when you know we're working with

543
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:04,640
you know sub-particle models or

544
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:06,159
zero-point or ether models whatever you

545
00:21:09,029 --> 00:21:07,440
want to call it

546
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:09,039
when when you look at them all the

547
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:11,200
properties that james talked about

548
00:21:15,190 --> 00:21:13,600
um you talked about it those are the

549
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:15,200
same properties you see time and time

550
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:17,760
again you know in research over the last

551
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:21,840
180 years or so that really seemed to

552
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:23,840
be pulling something from zero point or

553
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:26,720
ether or what have you um so

554
00:21:31,029 --> 00:21:28,960
it's uh

555
00:21:32,149 --> 00:21:31,039
i've said my phil i think at somebody

556
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:32,159
else's time

557
00:21:34,950 --> 00:21:33,919
okay oops

558
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:34,960
thank you

559
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:38,400
um okay let me go on and just uh to keep

560
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:41,280
things moving uh uh ask a

561
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:43,200
different and related question and that

562
00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:46,240
is why are there so many misguided

563
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:48,000
researchers working

564
00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:52,080
on energy ideas and technologies uh

565
00:21:56,470 --> 00:21:54,640
hathaway lab has gone through zillions

566
00:21:58,870 --> 00:21:56,480
of things and really found

567
00:22:00,870 --> 00:21:58,880
no strong evidence earth tech

568
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:00,880
international did

569
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:03,760
similarly coulescence spent a long time

570
00:22:10,470 --> 00:22:07,200
looking in depth at cold fusion and lanr

571
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:10,480
and found nothing why why so many people

572
00:22:15,830 --> 00:22:13,760
in this field uh so let me first ask the

573
00:22:18,549 --> 00:22:15,840
the panel to answer if anybody on the

574
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:18,559
panel wants to i can just is this stuff

575
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:19,919
being recorded

576
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:27,270
i i can give a brief

577
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:29,760
answer to that it's called short memory

578
00:22:33,669 --> 00:22:31,280
and laziness

579
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:33,679
uh typically the

580
00:22:37,590 --> 00:22:36,799
the kind of researchers that i i uh

581
00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:37,600
have

582
00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:45,280
inability

583
00:22:51,350 --> 00:22:48,640
to consider that their ideas have

584
00:22:54,630 --> 00:22:51,360
actually uh been

585
00:22:55,630 --> 00:22:54,640
looked at and discarded in 1880

586
00:23:00,870 --> 00:22:55,640
or

587
00:23:03,909 --> 00:23:00,880
there's a very there's a there's a

588
00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:03,919
memory problem uh and i can go into all

589
00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:05,200
sorts of others but that's the first

590
00:23:10,070 --> 00:23:06,320
thing that

591
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,630
thank you uh anybody else on the panel

592
00:23:15,990 --> 00:23:14,559
all right yes um

593
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,000
so um

594
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:18,960
to adding on on that um i like a pause

595
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:22,960
work you know pause work really

596
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:25,200
artificial human-made type of b energy

597
00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:27,600
processes using colonial motion and

598
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:30,320
charging up now his process very clear

599
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:32,240
he had you know the diode

600
00:23:36,549 --> 00:23:34,559
you know a pair of that is a symmetrical

601
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:36,559
system symmetrical components so the

602
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:38,480
whole system is systematic

603
00:23:42,310 --> 00:23:40,720
perfectly fitted the

604
00:23:43,350 --> 00:23:42,320
type of beethoven energy process so i

605
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:43,360
was thinking

606
00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:45,200
that when you communicate you know so

607
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:46,559
you know part of the fleet of say you

608
00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:48,720
know what is second law

609
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:50,000
you know you want to say second law

610
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:51,600
that's not a pie because you have a

611
00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:53,200
symmetric you know you can assign my

612
00:23:56,789 --> 00:23:54,880
paper we already published

613
00:23:58,870 --> 00:23:56,799
and you have a semester inside of my

614
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:58,880
actual paper after then you helping me a

615
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,880
lot to republish that paper

616
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:02,880
um you can decide my paper saying you

617
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:04,480
know now we have understand there are

618
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:06,960
two type of processes on earth naturally

619
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:08,400
occurring

620
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:11,600
what you made is really a solid or

621
00:24:17,669 --> 00:24:14,720
scientific type of b process human-made

622
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:17,679
and also daniel's uh epitome catalysis

623
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,520
is also a valid

624
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,360
copy energy but human-made it's not an

625
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:23,760
actual curly hair of course

626
00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:25,440
so yeah we need to commit that because

627
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:27,520
you say chinese second people say oh you

628
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:28,799
know we me

629
00:24:31,909 --> 00:24:30,080
you know this kind of turn off those

630
00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:31,919
kind of feet you know your pseudo sign

631
00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:32,960
you know they immediately get that

632
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:34,320
reaction now you understand there are

633
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:36,720
two type of energy processes the reason

634
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:38,320
is you have a symmetry remember the

635
00:24:43,029 --> 00:24:40,720
second law came from you know from the

636
00:24:45,909 --> 00:24:43,039
kind of cycle right we expect i try to

637
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:45,919
expand that in my paper to y why

638
00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:48,480
you know you should not apply here

639
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:51,039
yeah so uh then you have to give a very

640
00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:53,360
good list so a symmetric is like it's a

641
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:54,720
necessary condition there are other

642
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:56,880
conditions also danny also just in his

643
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:57,600
uh

644
00:25:01,990 --> 00:24:59,679
um talk today right so those like you

645
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:02,000
know you have to have boundaries all

646
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:04,559
that that's also also also valid but i

647
00:25:08,549 --> 00:25:06,720
think a symmetrical sentence should be

648
00:25:10,149 --> 00:25:08,559
like the key criteria you know to see

649
00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:10,159
whether they're possible so that's my

650
00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:12,960
point okay don't be afraid to say

651
00:25:16,149 --> 00:25:14,640
the technology does not apply don't be

652
00:25:18,310 --> 00:25:16,159
afraid because there are people don't

653
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:18,320
understand so if we are not trying to

654
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:20,320
change the second one second chance

655
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:22,559
second or just like ideal guess a very

656
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:24,880
good law beautiful law and apply many

657
00:25:27,269 --> 00:25:25,919
places

658
00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:27,279
and we need that

659
00:25:32,470 --> 00:25:29,760
thank you thank you

660
00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:32,480
you had your hand up uh sure

661
00:25:36,390 --> 00:25:34,000
so the question is

662
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:36,400
why have there been so many failures

663
00:25:39,750 --> 00:25:38,320
because it's a hard problem

664
00:25:41,590 --> 00:25:39,760
but also because too few people are

665
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:41,600
working on it and that has a lot to do

666
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:45,440
with the lack of funding uh shame and

667
00:25:48,789 --> 00:25:47,039
cudgeling by the scientific community

668
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:48,799
not to look at these

669
00:25:54,310 --> 00:25:52,320
because of fear of failure i think

670
00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:54,320
people who are trying it now are

671
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:56,159
trying things that many in many cases

672
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:57,600
could have been tried a long time ago i

673
00:26:00,870 --> 00:25:59,760
i often say that the epicatalysis

674
00:26:02,430 --> 00:26:00,880
experiment

675
00:26:05,190 --> 00:26:02,440
could have been conducted back in the

676
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:05,200
1870s probably it's it's a 19th century

677
00:26:09,669 --> 00:26:07,600
experiment that had to wait to the 21st

678
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:09,679
century to be done simply because people

679
00:26:12,789 --> 00:26:11,360
were not looking

680
00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:12,799
or did not look because they didn't

681
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:15,200
think they'd ever find anything so i

682
00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:17,440
think the and same would be true of

683
00:26:20,070 --> 00:26:19,120
germano's ideas

684
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:20,080
uh

685
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,200
these are ideas that could have been

686
00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:22,799
explored a century ago

687
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:26,480
so it's it's a strange thing uh that we

688
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:28,400
haven't looked at it but i think it has

689
00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:30,480
to do with the community of science

690
00:26:35,669 --> 00:26:32,880
venerating the second law so much that

691
00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:35,679
it's unpopular and unfunded to try to do

692
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:39,440
so well turning it around why why do why

693
00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:41,600
are there so many erroneous results

694
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:43,760
people who are believing that they

695
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:45,760
actually are harvesting energy when

696
00:26:49,830 --> 00:26:46,960
they're not

697
00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:49,840
doing the experiments well or they

698
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:51,200
haven't thought things through correctly

699
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:52,400
there are a lot of reasons i mean i'm

700
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:55,919
not i think uh

701
00:27:01,350 --> 00:26:58,960
failure is part of science and um and if

702
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:01,360
you're not well educated and motivated

703
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:03,840
and so on um then yeah you can fail a

704
00:27:07,990 --> 00:27:05,840
lot more often

705
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:08,000
but i find it surprising that when a

706
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:10,400
second law challenge comes about almost

707
00:27:14,390 --> 00:27:12,559
nobody repeats it in fact it's

708
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:14,400
ones in the literature have not been

709
00:27:19,669 --> 00:27:17,520
repeated uh paul's hasn't mine haven't

710
00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:19,679
i'd be surprised garrett if anyone does

711
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:22,480
yours for a long time either

712
00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:24,880
people avoid doing these repetition

713
00:27:30,149 --> 00:27:26,799
experiments i would i would i would

714
00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:30,159
relish someone trying to to

715
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:32,080
repeat some of these experiments but

716
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:33,279
they aren't being done because the

717
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:34,880
scientific community

718
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:37,360
dissuades people from doing so

719
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:40,000
thank you anybody else on the panel

720
00:27:45,669 --> 00:27:42,720
you know i can add to that i i

721
00:27:47,350 --> 00:27:45,679
i've gotten uh you know

722
00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:47,360
not to brag or anything but i've gotten

723
00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:49,520
a lot of funding over the years from the

724
00:27:54,070 --> 00:27:52,240
from from my semiconductor work and my

725
00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:54,080
surface science work

726
00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:55,760
you know in the millions of dollars and

727
00:28:00,149 --> 00:27:58,320
then when i started switching to i know

728
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:00,159
i like this problem

729
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:03,279
you know and i switched to um you know

730
00:28:06,549 --> 00:28:05,200
basically the brownian motion of

731
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:06,559
graphene

732
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:08,640
uh in some kind of energy

733
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,360
uh harvesting aspect of that

734
00:28:17,909 --> 00:28:13,440
uh i've submitted a bunch of proposals

735
00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:17,919
dod i've talked to darpa i know um david

736
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:20,240
and um

737
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:22,799
nsf of course and you know there's

738
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:24,559
reviewers that will review your thing

739
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:26,880
and say oh hey this violates the second

740
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:29,520
law we shouldn't fund it

741
00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:32,640
yes so that happens i'll i'll uh i'll

742
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:34,000
echo that

743
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:42,389
i mean i think garrett's question really

744
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:44,559
was why are there so many

745
00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:46,399
uh garage people

746
00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:48,720
for a better name out there trying all

747
00:28:54,149 --> 00:28:51,520
these things like um like george pointed

748
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:54,159
out magnetic motors and this and that

749
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:55,039
and

750
00:29:00,630 --> 00:28:58,320
you know people seem to be really driven

751
00:29:02,710 --> 00:29:00,640
to find something like that

752
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:02,720
and that's a really interesting question

753
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:03,840
i think

754
00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:04,640
and

755
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:05,440
it

756
00:29:11,510 --> 00:29:10,000
something out there

757
00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:11,520
information

758
00:29:15,990 --> 00:29:13,760
and and beg my kind of metaphysical

759
00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:16,000
discussion here something floating in

760
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:19,440
the universe that seems to be like wow

761
00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:20,960
there's something there's something

762
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:22,559
there's something and we're all striving

763
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:24,240
to find that

764
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:26,480
and you know it's going to land on one

765
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:28,240
of us but like picasso said well

766
00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:30,640
inspiration needs to find you working

767
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:33,120
right so when that inspiration comes

768
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:35,440
it's the people like all you

769
00:29:40,389 --> 00:29:37,760
doing the real good hard work

770
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:40,399
that is going to solve it so that's my

771
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:41,679
two cents

772
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:44,000
i can i can add to that too so so i um

773
00:29:49,990 --> 00:29:47,600
when i published my paper in 2016 it was

774
00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:50,000
i noticed that the statistical

775
00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:52,480
properties of graphene had a heavy tail

776
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:54,640
like a like a levee flight a

777
00:29:58,389 --> 00:29:56,720
real laurencian distribution which is

778
00:29:59,990 --> 00:29:58,399
highly unusual

779
00:30:02,149 --> 00:30:00,000
and

780
00:30:03,190 --> 00:30:02,159
got very little attention

781
00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:03,200
uh

782
00:30:07,269 --> 00:30:05,120
when we basically

783
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,279
said oh hey you know that actually since

784
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:09,200
there's a high probability of high

785
00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:10,960
velocity movement

786
00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:13,200
that may lead to an energy harvesting

787
00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:14,559
concept

788
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:17,360
it resulted in this

789
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:20,720
huge you know press release uh you know

790
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:22,640
a big a big pickup in the community you

791
00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:25,200
know this big uh all metric score where

792
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:27,200
i was getting on the order of a thousand

793
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:29,760
emails so i there's something in the

794
00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:32,080
public that's interested in

795
00:30:37,909 --> 00:30:34,720
those types of topics versus these other

796
00:30:45,350 --> 00:30:40,630
had a comment his hand

797
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:47,830
yeah can you guys hear me yeah yes

798
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:50,720
you know i just uh want to comment on

799
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:52,960
something launching off of a statement

800
00:30:57,029 --> 00:30:54,399
that i heard charles

801
00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:57,039
say a long time ago uh this is in some

802
00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,440
cases this is all about bookkeeping and

803
00:31:03,509 --> 00:31:01,440
are we bookkeeping all the right things

804
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:03,519
right we're talking about uh the second

805
00:31:07,029 --> 00:31:05,600
law of thermodynamics

806
00:31:09,509 --> 00:31:07,039
so that's kind of like my my launching

807
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:09,519
point for just a few small statements

808
00:31:15,830 --> 00:31:12,960
i'll make in in 60 seconds or less

809
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:15,840
you heard me talk in my presentation if

810
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:17,279
you think about physics as a venn

811
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:19,600
diagram right there's two circles on the

812
00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:21,760
venn diagram and they touch at a tangent

813
00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:23,760
point one of the circles represents

814
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:25,200
general relativity the other one

815
00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:27,600
represents quantum mechanics

816
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:29,120
so we know there's a more

817
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:30,720
generalized understanding that we have

818
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:32,399
yet to develop

819
00:31:36,149 --> 00:31:34,320
i mean think about

820
00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:36,159
just from general relativity dark energy

821
00:31:39,350 --> 00:31:38,240
and dark matter 90 some odd percent of

822
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:39,360
the universe

823
00:31:43,029 --> 00:31:41,440
we technically don't even know what it's

824
00:31:44,389 --> 00:31:43,039
made of right there's a lot of models

825
00:31:48,149 --> 00:31:44,399
that are trying to explain it whether

826
00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:48,159
it's mathematical or a real thing

827
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:50,640
and then just as a a final point you

828
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:52,720
know for hundreds of years everyone in

829
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:54,720
science

830
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:57,120
worked to create purely analytic models

831
00:32:01,669 --> 00:31:58,880
because we didn't have computers to go

832
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:01,679
through and model anything so a lot of

833
00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:03,600
uh simplifying assumptions have been

834
00:32:07,190 --> 00:32:05,120
made that baked into a lot of things on

835
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:07,200
how we look at the universe and how we

836
00:32:10,870 --> 00:32:09,679
model it and how we how we study it uh

837
00:32:12,549 --> 00:32:10,880
and so what computers have kind of

838
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:12,559
changed that so even in the last 50

839
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:15,279
years i think we're seeing you know new

840
00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:17,200
tools and opportunities to go explore

841
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:19,120
things that we we couldn't have explored

842
00:32:23,509 --> 00:32:21,760
just you know a few decades ago

843
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:23,519
in in our work with

844
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:25,120
studying the the quantum vacuum with

845
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:26,960
these little casino cavities that we're

846
00:32:31,590 --> 00:32:28,960
building and we have to use thousands of

847
00:32:33,029 --> 00:32:31,600
cpus to study those so

848
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:33,039
all that to say

849
00:32:37,029 --> 00:32:35,120
and this closing statement may not be

850
00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:37,039
popular with some here

851
00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:39,360
do we really need to fret too much about

852
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:40,880
the worry of

853
00:32:43,750 --> 00:32:42,399
toppling the the second law of

854
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:43,760
thermodynamics right because there's

855
00:32:46,389 --> 00:32:45,039
there's still a lot of things that we

856
00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:46,399
don't know and a lot of things we have

857
00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:48,080
to make sure we understand and and

858
00:32:51,909 --> 00:32:50,480
salute to charles chase's uh tenant

859
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:51,919
we'll at least call it that the charles

860
00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:53,440
chase tenant are we are we doing all the

861
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:55,279
proper bookkeeping

862
00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:59,039
so if i i'd like to just respond to that

863
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:00,240
um

864
00:33:05,029 --> 00:33:02,640
no we certainly don't need to topple the

865
00:33:07,509 --> 00:33:05,039
second law and i i for my

866
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:07,519
technology i hope that we we're not

867
00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:08,320
but

868
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:12,960
the problem is uh as as daniel and

869
00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:15,600
in a different way um uh

870
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:17,440
paul thibodeau says

871
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:18,240
uh

872
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:20,640
the world won't recognize us

873
00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:23,840
unless we

874
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:25,919
if we appear to be violating the second

875
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:29,039
law and so the second law is tackling us

876
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:30,640
it's not that we're necessarily needing

877
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:32,640
to tackle it

878
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:33,600
that

879
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:38,399
when looked at from the investors

880
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:42,159
standpoint uh and i've been uh as i have

881
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:44,080
mentioned in my discussions been a sort

882
00:33:50,789 --> 00:33:46,559
of go-between uh between uh money

883
00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:50,799
parties and uh new inventions and uh

884
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:52,960
investors in the commercial world look

885
00:33:58,389 --> 00:33:55,840
at use different metrics to determine

886
00:33:59,830 --> 00:33:58,399
whether something is is uh

887
00:34:01,430 --> 00:33:59,840
efficacious

888
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:01,440
uh

889
00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:10,320
a um

890
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:12,879
a clinical view of whether something's

891
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:14,720
actually possible from looking at a

892
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:17,919
textbook and saying gosh the second law

893
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:19,440
says this is not going to work so i'm

894
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:22,079
not going to invest in it to gee i'm

895
00:34:27,510 --> 00:34:24,720
getting some results someone is making a

896
00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:27,520
bit of progress here um is it worth

897
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:30,240
continuing that progress either using

898
00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:32,240
darpa grant or

899
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:35,040
from some a private foundation or an

900
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:37,440
individual or somebody like that so

901
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:39,280
you have to use a bit different language

902
00:34:42,629 --> 00:34:40,159
also

903
00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:42,639
uh an investor really doesn't care

904
00:34:48,069 --> 00:34:44,560
whether you're violating first or second

905
00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:48,079
law or any other law for that matter

906
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:50,240
produce something so that goes along

907
00:34:53,669 --> 00:34:51,520
with what daniel was saying a little

908
00:34:56,470 --> 00:34:53,679
earlier that if if you have a product

909
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:56,480
that's profitable

910
00:35:00,710 --> 00:34:58,480
i'm sorry gary could i just put a small

911
00:35:02,069 --> 00:35:00,720
sentence on what you said and paul i

912
00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:02,079
agree with you i don't i don't think

913
00:35:05,589 --> 00:35:04,000
neither you nor paul need to go through

914
00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:05,599
and show that you're

915
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:06,800
violating the second law of

916
00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:08,480
thermodynamics i think it just goes back

917
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:10,320
to the as you know charles talked about

918
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:12,000
it's bookkeeping and making sure you

919
00:35:14,950 --> 00:35:13,200
understand

920
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:14,960
how can you set up some asymmetries

921
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:16,480
right because at the end of the day

922
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:18,240
my my coffee cup always tends to get

923
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:20,480
cold right so

924
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:21,520
um

925
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:23,920
just to uh as a counterpoint to what

926
00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:25,200
george said

927
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:28,160
uh for our technology we've brought it

928
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:31,680
to several different um

929
00:35:35,349 --> 00:35:33,599
larger groups looking

930
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:35,359
for collaboration

931
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:36,160
and

932
00:35:39,349 --> 00:35:38,160
what they usually do is bring in an

933
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:39,359
academic

934
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:41,520
to evaluate whether this could possibly

935
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:42,880
be true

936
00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:45,520
and the academic

937
00:35:49,349 --> 00:35:46,720
you know

938
00:35:50,390 --> 00:35:49,359
those academics

939
00:35:53,270 --> 00:35:50,400
are

940
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:53,280
tend to be very very conservative

941
00:35:58,470 --> 00:35:56,079
so let me actually twit

942
00:36:01,270 --> 00:35:58,480
modulate the question a little bit

943
00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:01,280
why are we so damn conservative and is

944
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:08,310
let me any on there are conservative

945
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:10,240
science necessary for science you know i

946
00:36:14,230 --> 00:36:12,000
actually enjoy actually appreciate

947
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:14,240
george and martin you know in germany

948
00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:16,560
doing that kind of verification that's

949
00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:18,000
important to maintain a scientific

950
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:21,280
integrity and test other force ideas

951
00:36:26,230 --> 00:36:24,560
now so the whole thing why this second

952
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:26,240
law part of that is not accepted

953
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:28,000
everybody says why this chinese second

954
00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:29,440
or why the second order they can reject

955
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:31,839
you department energy actually they have

956
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:34,079
a statement say nsa while second law

957
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:36,720
they will not fund so this matters you

958
00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:38,880
know right okay

959
00:36:43,030 --> 00:36:40,720
so it is

960
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:43,040
so this is going to take a long time so

961
00:36:48,069 --> 00:36:45,680
there's a part of history because in the

962
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:48,079
past you know like in a second i'll come

963
00:36:51,750 --> 00:36:50,000
out nobody understands they're thinking

964
00:36:53,829 --> 00:36:51,760
all the ideas our second law is not

965
00:36:56,230 --> 00:36:53,839
false and they can make perpetual

966
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:56,240
machines so many of those it's not true

967
00:37:01,750 --> 00:36:59,520
okay it's indeed the false ideas law

968
00:37:03,910 --> 00:37:01,760
and that's getting very bad names

969
00:37:06,069 --> 00:37:03,920
so then uh so that as soon as they say

970
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:06,079
you know perpetual machine or why the

971
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:07,680
second law they will say uh-huh you are

972
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:09,440
faking science

973
00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:11,200
you're no good

974
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:12,640
that's the only problem so i'm going to

975
00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:14,560
take a long time to come in so now

976
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:16,160
hopefully we not understand there are

977
00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:18,000
natural processes

978
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:20,400
they are top b we now clearly identify

979
00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:22,079
you know on equation very clear there's

980
00:37:27,750 --> 00:37:23,920
not no ambiguity there you are on

981
00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:27,760
creating you said explicitly rt is there

982
00:37:32,310 --> 00:37:30,160
and so and now you can say the reason

983
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:32,320
why because second law from ideal gas

984
00:37:38,550 --> 00:37:34,640
law you don't have a symmetry going on

985
00:37:40,069 --> 00:37:38,560
here okay you do so be careful haha

986
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:40,079
so that's that's why we are saying here

987
00:37:43,829 --> 00:37:41,920
you know we second law is a wonderful

988
00:37:45,510 --> 00:37:43,839
role i would say it's like uh all the

989
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:45,520
testimony

990
00:37:50,550 --> 00:37:48,640
part b you know that process will be

991
00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:50,560
a new testimony may be writing about so

992
00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:52,720
first uh the first uh you know the the

993
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:54,400
old testament is variable don't reject

994
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:56,400
second law don't trouble second law

995
00:38:00,550 --> 00:37:58,240
okay just like i did guess what they're

996
00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:00,560
valid so you say one second of course

997
00:38:03,270 --> 00:38:02,320
everybody gets very upset

998
00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:03,280
right

999
00:38:05,670 --> 00:38:04,800
especially they don't understand first

1000
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:05,680
of all

1001
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:07,680
no they cannot fund you okay

1002
00:38:10,310 --> 00:38:09,520
i think we need to communicate better

1003
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:10,320
our

1004
00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:11,760
strong recommend

1005
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:14,640
we don't want to say top or anti or

1006
00:38:17,510 --> 00:38:16,560
challenge second law we'll say they are

1007
00:38:19,670 --> 00:38:17,520
two

1008
00:38:21,829 --> 00:38:19,680
you apply easy spaces

1009
00:38:23,910 --> 00:38:21,839
not everywhere sir

1010
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,920
that's a message

1011
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:25,599
second i was abandoned

1012
00:38:29,510 --> 00:38:27,200
don't topple it

1013
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:29,520
thank you thank you i'd like to i'd like

1014
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:31,440
to bring in if i could

1015
00:38:35,670 --> 00:38:34,400
five new topics and they might shed some

1016
00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:35,680
light

1017
00:38:39,030 --> 00:38:37,520
if that's at all possible

1018
00:38:41,109 --> 00:38:39,040
i think historically we have to look at

1019
00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:41,119
babbage don't forget when babbage

1020
00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:44,079
created a computer and how many decades

1021
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:47,200
went by before is even looked at again

1022
00:38:51,109 --> 00:38:48,960
just think about it you could have had a

1023
00:38:53,190 --> 00:38:51,119
computer had the french government not

1024
00:38:55,430 --> 00:38:53,200
pull back the money the military was

1025
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:55,440
giving babbage to develop it

1026
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:58,079
that's one concept the second concept

1027
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:00,800
is the concept of how simple things are

1028
00:39:05,349 --> 00:39:02,960
once you know how they work look at all

1029
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:05,359
the people who try to fly look at all

1030
00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:08,000
the attempts of doing a flying machine

1031
00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:10,240
the wright brothers looked at the birds

1032
00:39:14,870 --> 00:39:12,480
learned a lot and now the average kid

1033
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:14,880
can make a little glider that flies that

1034
00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:17,040
they could have never done years ago and

1035
00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:19,440
you can understand how it works look at

1036
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:21,200
simple things that that that are

1037
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:24,320
actually incredibly simple a vacuum tube

1038
00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:27,040
an x-ray tube uh back in the days when i

1039
00:39:31,829 --> 00:39:29,280
first would in the 60s did lasers they

1040
00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:31,839
were just very simple things a

1041
00:39:36,550 --> 00:39:33,680
transistor is even although that gets

1042
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,560
into the micro stuff so many things are

1043
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:38,720
simple a gyroscope the electric motor

1044
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:40,320
they try to do motors for years and

1045
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:42,640
finally one guy got the commutators

1046
00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:45,280
right uh even the internal combustion

1047
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:47,760
engine it had a couple of tricks uh the

1048
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:51,040
the the camshaft uh the multiple valve

1049
00:39:55,990 --> 00:39:54,160
cylinders uh on and on and on but it has

1050
00:39:59,109 --> 00:39:56,000
about five six seven trips even a

1051
00:40:01,910 --> 00:39:59,119
bicycle procession and the way the the

1052
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:01,920
the the can't the can of cantilevered uh

1053
00:40:06,309 --> 00:40:04,560
wheels and so on so these are all things

1054
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,319
once we get it it's simple and we

1055
00:40:10,390 --> 00:40:08,880
understand it but it was this trick and

1056
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:10,400
then the last thing i wanted to bring up

1057
00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:12,720
i have 10 more but i won't talk is the

1058
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:15,680
concept that people must die

1059
00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:17,920
in order for them to have progress

1060
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:21,280
people must die and the reason why they

1061
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:23,520
must die is i remember in the early days

1062
00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:25,680
i did the first instrumentation on an

1063
00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:26,800
airplane

1064
00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:28,960
and was to just simply do the fuel tank

1065
00:40:32,630 --> 00:40:30,960
it was done by wire and it was to

1066
00:40:35,430 --> 00:40:32,640
measure the fuel in a fuel tank and as

1067
00:40:37,349 --> 00:40:35,440
old guy boeing opposed it and opposed it

1068
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:37,359
and opposed it we were doing it for

1069
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:38,720
simmons precision and all of a sudden i

1070
00:40:42,630 --> 00:40:41,040
get the call one day he died so now he

1071
00:40:44,550 --> 00:40:42,640
can move forward and so when you're

1072
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:44,560
talking about these organizations and

1073
00:40:49,109 --> 00:40:47,040
these peer review boards they consist of

1074
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:49,119
people and these people are dead in

1075
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:50,880
their ways and they're super opposed

1076
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:52,800
things and they make things not happen

1077
00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:54,640
and they're powerful people they've got

1078
00:40:59,030 --> 00:40:57,520
to die in fact who said this was fun

1079
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,040
you're not going to get new physics

1080
00:41:03,750 --> 00:41:01,440
until enough people die

1081
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:03,760
yes i think garrett does that answer

1082
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:06,319
your question as to why you guys are all

1083
00:41:11,430 --> 00:41:10,390
yeah

1084
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:11,440
right

1085
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:13,520
i mean that seems like a good social

1086
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:16,319
factor in the whole conservative nature

1087
00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:18,720
of academia which i

1088
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:20,560
you know you guys got to be right though

1089
00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:22,319
i mean if you're wrong about something

1090
00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:26,000
man you get run over the coals

1091
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:27,119
yeah

1092
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:29,440
can we freshen the way that we speak i

1093
00:41:33,829 --> 00:41:31,599
mean sometimes even just rearranging the

1094
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:33,839
way that we discuss items and frame our

1095
00:41:38,309 --> 00:41:35,680
questions can make a huge difference in

1096
00:41:40,470 --> 00:41:38,319
solving and i find this to be true you

1097
00:41:42,550 --> 00:41:40,480
know i hear the same things repeated

1098
00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:42,560
again and again and again i've listened

1099
00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:45,040
to all of the sessions these five days

1100
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:46,960
and people speak about light in the same

1101
00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:49,440
way they they quote this law this rule

1102
00:41:54,710 --> 00:41:52,240
that law and i hear you all phrasing

1103
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:54,720
things the same way every time you say

1104
00:41:58,230 --> 00:41:57,040
it and i just challenge you

1105
00:42:00,069 --> 00:41:58,240
to

1106
00:42:02,230 --> 00:42:00,079
think about the way that you're speaking

1107
00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:02,240
about fundamental energy and light and

1108
00:42:06,790 --> 00:42:04,720
perhaps reframe some of your questions

1109
00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:06,800
um i encourage you to watch all of the

1110
00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:09,359
talks over these past five days catch up

1111
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:10,240
with

1112
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:12,400
some truly fantastic

1113
00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:14,480
really good ideas and charles recorded

1114
00:42:19,430 --> 00:42:16,720
an intro yesterday that's at the top of

1115
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:19,440
our uh blog page and i would read that i

1116
00:42:21,750 --> 00:42:20,880
would listen to that too that was a good

1117
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:21,760
one

1118
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:26,640
i want to get that in we ask are there

1119
00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:29,200
people who haven't spoken yet this

1120
00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:32,400
afternoon who have some comments i think

1121
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:34,560
some people may be quiet but have

1122
00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:56,829
are you trying to say something you're

1123
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:00,240
unmute you're unreal you're on mute i

1124
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:05,990
okay shall i speak yes

1125
00:43:09,990 --> 00:43:07,599
okay uh no

1126
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:10,000
actually no sorry i'm trying to get jack

1127
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:13,440
sarfatti to to speak but

1128
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:15,119
hello

1129
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:16,800
jack the mute buttons on the bottom left

1130
00:43:22,230 --> 00:43:19,200
of the bezel

1131
00:43:24,309 --> 00:43:22,240
no it's not working okay garrett

1132
00:43:26,309 --> 00:43:24,319
uh

1133
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:26,319
yes is there somebody else who hasn't

1134
00:43:36,230 --> 00:43:33,430
bob ruik i'm not a part of your panel i

1135
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:36,240
have not spoke please

1136
00:43:40,470 --> 00:43:38,000
can i share just a couple of

1137
00:43:42,550 --> 00:43:40,480
observations or questions i'll go ahead

1138
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:42,560
bob

1139
00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:43,839
um

1140
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:45,440
i have followed

1141
00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:49,680
this work since 2006 when i went to a

1142
00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:51,520
symposium that

1143
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:53,440
dr sheehan had out

1144
00:44:01,990 --> 00:43:59,030
my motivation has been different it's

1145
00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:02,000
been to see where physics needs to be

1146
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:03,599
extended to

1147
00:44:07,109 --> 00:44:04,960
take into

1148
00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:07,119
the support

1149
00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:07,920
uh

1150
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:10,640
paranormal and and non-locality kind of

1151
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:12,079
situations

1152
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:12,800
so

1153
00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:16,240
uh if measurements of energy violating

1154
00:44:20,309 --> 00:44:18,880
the second law all use language and

1155
00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:20,319
terminology

1156
00:44:29,510 --> 00:44:28,230
if system is not closed and for instance

1157
00:44:32,550 --> 00:44:29,520
there is a

1158
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:32,560
zero point field existing

1159
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:36,000
then there's no surprise

1160
00:44:41,270 --> 00:44:37,359
there is

1161
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:41,280
violation of this second law

1162
00:44:47,589 --> 00:44:44,400
the issue to me is one of

1163
00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:47,599
uh is time uh really

1164
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:49,760
as we have assumed it with this

1165
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:51,760
simultaneous

1166
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:55,040
energy and photon exchange in

1167
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:56,000
in

1168
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:58,160
causality

1169
00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:59,119
uh

1170
00:45:01,589 --> 00:45:00,720
or

1171
00:45:04,710 --> 00:45:01,599
is

1172
00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:04,720
time really a duration

1173
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:07,520
and at the plank limits of 10 to the

1174
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:09,200
minus 44

1175
00:45:13,589 --> 00:45:11,520
we aren't even close

1176
00:45:16,710 --> 00:45:13,599
to examining

1177
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:16,720
what the limit is in our own model

1178
00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:17,520
which

1179
00:45:21,910 --> 00:45:19,280
right now the best measurements i've

1180
00:45:24,069 --> 00:45:21,920
been informed of are about 10 to the

1181
00:45:25,589 --> 00:45:24,079
minus 23.

1182
00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:25,599
and everything that's been discussed

1183
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:26,640
today

1184
00:45:32,630 --> 00:45:28,400
has been

1185
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:35,670
so did you have a slacks up jack's ready

1186
00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:37,680
to go okay yeah

1187
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:40,240
so uh uh a couple of things

1188
00:45:45,910 --> 00:45:42,720
uh has anybody considered

1189
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:45,920
uh can you hear me yep

1190
00:45:51,030 --> 00:45:48,560
what happens when you uh make a carnot

1191
00:45:53,190 --> 00:45:51,040
engine with a negative spin temperature

1192
00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:53,200
coupled to a classical positive

1193
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:57,040
temperature what's the efficiency

1194
00:46:03,829 --> 00:46:01,359
you tell us check that one out

1195
00:46:04,870 --> 00:46:03,839
you have 100 it turns out that heat is

1196
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:04,880
sucked

1197
00:46:09,349 --> 00:46:07,200
according to the second law according to

1198
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:09,359
the classical second law the carnot

1199
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:10,480
equation

1200
00:46:15,109 --> 00:46:12,960
uh heat is sucked out of both reservoirs

1201
00:46:16,790 --> 00:46:15,119
and converted entirely into work it's

1202
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:16,800
not a violation the second one is the

1203
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:18,640
second law

1204
00:46:22,470 --> 00:46:20,480
but with negative negative you know

1205
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:22,480
quantum spin temperatures and there's a

1206
00:46:26,829 --> 00:46:24,240
quantum effect

1207
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,390
but

1208
00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:30,880
you thought about that

1209
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:33,119
how do you build one yeah how do you set

1210
00:46:39,109 --> 00:46:34,240
up

1211
00:46:40,069 --> 00:46:39,119
the negative spin temperature that is

1212
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:40,079
separate

1213
00:46:45,430 --> 00:46:43,440
uh from a positive uh well

1214
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:45,440
well i don't yeah that's a good that

1215
00:46:49,190 --> 00:46:47,280
that's a good question well the second

1216
00:46:52,150 --> 00:46:49,200
law is an experimental statement i'm

1217
00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:52,160
just going i'm just going over the uh

1218
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:54,240
what the mathematics says i mean i'm not

1219
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:55,119
you know

1220
00:46:59,349 --> 00:46:56,800
figure out an expression that's why it

1221
00:47:01,270 --> 00:46:59,359
should be impossible but is it some law

1222
00:47:03,589 --> 00:47:01,280
a nature thing you cannot

1223
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:03,599
um you know the spin to be in couple of

1224
00:47:06,309 --> 00:47:05,200
spin degrees of freedom to the last

1225
00:47:07,910 --> 00:47:06,319
degrees of freedom so i think it's

1226
00:47:10,230 --> 00:47:07,920
called spin orbit point i think you

1227
00:47:12,790 --> 00:47:10,240
should be able to do that yeah but but

1228
00:47:15,270 --> 00:47:12,800
but spin spin orbit coupling and and uh

1229
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:15,280
spin temperature i like into electron

1230
00:47:17,430 --> 00:47:16,480
temperature which

1231
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:17,440
is

1232
00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:20,480
uh a different class of thermodynamic to

1233
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:22,400
things i don't see what i know

1234
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:23,440
i don't say

1235
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:24,720
i mean you know i have faith in

1236
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:26,319
mathematics i'm a theoretical physicist

1237
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:28,880
i see the equation says

1238
00:47:32,710 --> 00:47:30,880
i mean it's experimental issue i mean i

1239
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:32,720
don't i don't see why it should be a

1240
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:34,640
fundamental law that you cannot

1241
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:37,119
uh run a carnot engine between a

1242
00:47:41,910 --> 00:47:40,079
negative and a positive temperature

1243
00:47:43,990 --> 00:47:41,920
so i think the answer you can't but it's

1244
00:47:46,230 --> 00:47:44,000
not obvious you can't you can't so i

1245
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:46,240
think the answer here is that really

1246
00:47:52,150 --> 00:47:47,920
theorists ought to be building things

1247
00:47:58,549 --> 00:47:55,990
okay there is a book there's a zamanski

1248
00:48:01,589 --> 00:47:58,559
it's a dover there's an old book by

1249
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:01,599
zamanski you know sears and zamanski

1250
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:03,680
and he talks about

1251
00:48:06,230 --> 00:48:04,559
uh

1252
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:06,240
carnal engine between two negative

1253
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:07,760
temperatures

1254
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:09,359
but he doesn't talk about positive and

1255
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:10,319
negative

1256
00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:13,280
so it's in schizoid standard textbook

1257
00:48:16,549 --> 00:48:14,720
from years ago

1258
00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:16,559
now that uh there's a kind of engine

1259
00:48:21,670 --> 00:48:19,200
with between two negative temperatures

1260
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:21,680
so i don't see any fundamental uh you

1261
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:23,839
know just

1262
00:48:28,549 --> 00:48:26,480
not okay the other thing is uh about uh

1263
00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:28,559
the other change topic

1264
00:48:33,430 --> 00:48:30,640
uh about the real and virtual particles

1265
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:33,440
that wasn't garrett was asking uh you

1266
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:35,200
know is that he with the co-tangent

1267
00:48:39,109 --> 00:48:37,200
formula are they unified

1268
00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:39,119
and uh yes

1269
00:48:42,710 --> 00:48:40,720
the uh hawking

1270
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:42,720
evaporation of black holes and the

1271
00:48:45,750 --> 00:48:44,160
unrule

1272
00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:45,760
the distinction between virtual

1273
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:48,720
particles and real particles is not

1274
00:48:52,950 --> 00:48:50,160
invariant

1275
00:48:55,829 --> 00:48:52,960
under um inertial non-inertial frame

1276
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:55,839
transformation general relativity um in

1277
00:48:58,390 --> 00:48:57,119
other words if you have a particle

1278
00:49:00,710 --> 00:48:58,400
detector

1279
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:00,720
that has a proper acceleration you know

1280
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,640
it's a it's really accelerating relative

1281
00:49:06,309 --> 00:49:04,480
to the gravitational

1282
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:06,319
um metric field

1283
00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:08,319
uh it sees uh

1284
00:49:11,750 --> 00:49:10,880
these black body radiation that depends

1285
00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:11,760
upon

1286
00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:13,119
its um

1287
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:15,760
its proper acceleration you know off its

1288
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:18,400
possessive path so uh

1289
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:21,520
so that means that the inertial observer

1290
00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:24,559
will see zero point photons but the guy

1291
00:49:29,270 --> 00:49:26,880
next to him who's accelerating

1292
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:29,280
will see some of these virtual photons

1293
00:49:33,190 --> 00:49:31,440
become real photons i guess because you

1294
00:49:35,109 --> 00:49:33,200
know there's an external force on the

1295
00:49:38,150 --> 00:49:35,119
detectors doing work so it's providing

1296
00:49:41,430 --> 00:49:38,160
the energy to to upgrade the uh

1297
00:49:43,670 --> 00:49:41,440
the virtual photons into real photons

1298
00:49:45,589 --> 00:49:43,680
so um so the distinction i mean the

1299
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:45,599
general the mess the distinction between

1300
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:47,760
real and virtual particles is not an

1301
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:49,440
absolute distinction

1302
00:49:54,549 --> 00:49:52,400
it's contingent on acceleration of the

1303
00:49:57,910 --> 00:49:54,559
detector so i think that's

1304
00:49:59,430 --> 00:49:57,920
relevant to what garrett was uh asking

1305
00:50:00,950 --> 00:49:59,440
yes thank you

1306
00:50:01,750 --> 00:50:00,960
um

1307
00:50:03,190 --> 00:50:01,760
gene

1308
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:03,200
kidman had

1309
00:50:09,430 --> 00:50:06,160
uh you you had your hand up yes um

1310
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:09,440
so i'm a chemical engineer and uh

1311
00:50:12,390 --> 00:50:11,200
i've been interested in energy for some

1312
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:12,400
time i did an

1313
00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:16,000
analysis on a a reaction that really

1314
00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:17,200
brings

1315
00:50:20,309 --> 00:50:19,520
an interesting thought about entropy

1316
00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:20,319
um

1317
00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:21,280
in this

1318
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:22,720
reaction

1319
00:50:28,870 --> 00:50:27,680
uh done in what he calls intermediate

1320
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:28,880
fusion

1321
00:50:32,950 --> 00:50:30,480
and i i

1322
00:50:34,710 --> 00:50:32,960
was able to find with a high degree of

1323
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:34,720
accuracy there was a trip that there was

1324
00:50:38,150 --> 00:50:36,640
a tremendous amount

1325
00:50:39,670 --> 00:50:38,160
of uh

1326
00:50:42,549 --> 00:50:39,680
transmutation

1327
00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:42,559
and i was able actually from the from

1328
00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:44,160
the mass balance

1329
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:46,240
uh able to show

1330
00:50:50,549 --> 00:50:48,720
a chemical reaction equation it was that

1331
00:50:53,910 --> 00:50:50,559
it was that precise

1332
00:50:56,549 --> 00:50:53,920
but the weird thing about it uh was that

1333
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:56,559
about four ten thousandths of the energy

1334
00:51:00,710 --> 00:50:59,280
that would be predicted by that mass

1335
00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:00,720
uh loss

1336
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:03,440
uh shows up as heat and the rest well

1337
00:51:07,750 --> 00:51:05,520
who knows what happens to it

1338
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:07,760
which brings out the crazy question

1339
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:08,880
simply that

1340
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:10,640
the possibility

1341
00:51:14,870 --> 00:51:13,440
that there is something that composes

1342
00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:14,880
entropy

1343
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:17,280
that has nothing to do with this concept

1344
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:20,240
of order and disorder but is actually

1345
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:23,200
perhaps some kind of mass or energy

1346
00:51:36,790 --> 00:51:35,109
um

1347
00:51:40,230 --> 00:51:36,800
daniel did you have a

1348
00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:41,109
um

1349
00:51:45,829 --> 00:51:43,040
so there would be a there would be a

1350
00:51:48,309 --> 00:51:45,839
very nice cartilage gene to that because

1351
00:51:51,190 --> 00:51:48,319
entropy can be either the physics view

1352
00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:51,200
of entropy or it can be the shannon

1353
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:53,280
informational view of entropy and the

1354
00:51:56,950 --> 00:51:54,960
twain should never meet

1355
00:51:58,870 --> 00:51:56,960
uh i have a story i could tell you that

1356
00:52:00,870 --> 00:51:58,880
shannon was dying what he told me why he

1357
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:00,880
never connected the two but we don't

1358
00:52:05,589 --> 00:52:02,800
have the time for that but at any rate

1359
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:05,599
what you're alluding to is uh is that

1360
00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:09,280
the uh entropy uh takes on a form

1361
00:52:14,309 --> 00:52:12,240
right now of information disorder and it

1362
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:14,319
might have a correlate into a physical

1363
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:20,150
yeah yes that's true in fact uh

1364
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:22,319
there have been measurements made by the

1365
00:52:27,430 --> 00:52:24,720
the russians of something they call uh

1366
00:52:30,549 --> 00:52:27,440
strange radiation where they capture

1367
00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:30,559
this radiation that they can walk

1368
00:52:35,829 --> 00:52:33,920
as far as light is concerned and it it

1369
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:35,839
and it gets trapped because of its

1370
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:36,960
momentum

1371
00:52:41,190 --> 00:52:38,160
in water

1372
00:52:43,349 --> 00:52:41,200
and then can be forced back out of the

1373
00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:43,359
water by a laser

1374
00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:45,599
and it creates some kind of uh

1375
00:52:50,230 --> 00:52:48,240
interaction with an emulsion or a film

1376
00:52:51,910 --> 00:52:50,240
and so they they've got these

1377
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:51,920
strange radiation

1378
00:52:56,230 --> 00:52:54,000
tracks that's what they what they call

1379
00:52:58,230 --> 00:52:56,240
it and beyond that who knows what the

1380
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:58,240
devil it is but yeah i think there's

1381
00:53:01,510 --> 00:53:00,480
some there's some interesting

1382
00:53:02,950 --> 00:53:01,520
uh

1383
00:53:05,109 --> 00:53:02,960
data out there suggesting the

1384
00:53:06,309 --> 00:53:05,119
possibility that there is some other

1385
00:53:08,549 --> 00:53:06,319
form

1386
00:53:10,470 --> 00:53:08,559
of

1387
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:10,480
mass or energy

1388
00:53:15,270 --> 00:53:12,480
than what we

1389
00:53:17,990 --> 00:53:15,280
standard models or through standard

1390
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:18,000
radiation now even even a lot of the

1391
00:53:22,870 --> 00:53:20,400
lenr stuff they get into talking about

1392
00:53:24,230 --> 00:53:22,880
there's a guy called room

1393
00:53:27,190 --> 00:53:24,240
who went through and analyzed the

1394
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:27,200
radiation off of it and was not able to

1395
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:30,400
classify it into any one of the

1396
00:53:35,349 --> 00:53:32,880
normal classes for the radiation off of

1397
00:53:39,510 --> 00:53:35,359
those lenore reactions

1398
00:53:42,069 --> 00:53:39,520
so i thank you um i think you're

1399
00:53:43,349 --> 00:53:42,079
pointing to more questions than answers

1400
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:43,359
which i think is

1401
00:53:45,270 --> 00:53:44,240
what

1402
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:45,280
our

1403
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:47,520
whole discussion today did

1404
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:49,040
and i've got a

1405
00:53:53,270 --> 00:53:50,640
strong feeling this is not going to be

1406
00:53:55,109 --> 00:53:53,280
the last time we convened to discuss

1407
00:53:56,309 --> 00:53:55,119
these

1408
00:53:58,150 --> 00:53:56,319
about one last issues

1409
00:54:03,990 --> 00:53:58,160
garrett

1410
00:54:07,589 --> 00:54:06,390
generation 4

1411
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:07,599
of what

1412
00:54:14,950 --> 00:54:12,240
second law devices i see okay uh let's

1413
00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:14,960
next time we meet we'll have it

1414
00:54:18,150 --> 00:54:16,160
okay

1415
00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:18,160
you you and i will be in production with

1416
00:54:25,510 --> 00:54:23,910
so anyway i'd like to i it's time i

1417
00:54:27,349 --> 00:54:25,520
don't want to

1418
00:54:28,630 --> 00:54:27,359
know there's a lot more to to say but i

1419
00:54:31,349 --> 00:54:28,640
think we better

1420
00:54:33,030 --> 00:54:31,359
uh call it at this point all right uh

1421
00:54:36,549 --> 00:54:33,040
thank you very much

1422
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:36,559
for your participation and interest

1423
00:54:38,630 --> 00:54:37,680
um

1424
00:54:41,750 --> 00:54:38,640
there's

1425
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:41,760
as i said much more to to pursue which i

1426
00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:43,760
i'm sure we will do in future

1427
00:54:47,910 --> 00:54:45,280
conversations

1428
00:54:49,030 --> 00:54:47,920
uh charles do you have uh any final

1429
00:54:50,630 --> 00:54:49,040
comments

1430
00:54:53,829 --> 00:54:50,640
yeah thank you garrett and you know

1431
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:53,839
really appreciate you uh joining us

1432
00:54:58,230 --> 00:54:56,160
this year and the society for scientific

1433
00:54:59,670 --> 00:54:58,240
exploration and it's been a wonderful

1434
00:55:02,549 --> 00:54:59,680
set of talks

1435
00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:02,559
on this last day of our conference and

1436
00:55:05,750 --> 00:55:03,760
um

1437
00:55:07,030 --> 00:55:05,760
you know as long as we've had 29 talks

1438
00:55:09,430 --> 00:55:07,040
throughout the

1439
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:09,440
five days and near as i can tell about

1440
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:13,119
150 maybe 175 different participants so

1441
00:55:18,069 --> 00:55:15,119
although you know it's unfortunate we

1442
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:18,079
couldn't meet in person at mit where you

1443
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:20,720
have those really strong heart-to-heart

1444
00:55:25,589 --> 00:55:23,359
conversations um i think there's other

1445
00:55:28,390 --> 00:55:25,599
benefits to the zoo meeting where more

1446
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:28,400
people can participate and uh

1447
00:55:31,589 --> 00:55:29,920
and that as well

1448
00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:31,599
and i just you know i think our

1449
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:33,839
questions are key right what are the

1450
00:55:39,430 --> 00:55:35,920
questions that we're asking

1451
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:39,440
and um someone had a quote that you know

1452
00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:41,280
once once

1453
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:43,359
you ask the right question

1454
00:55:47,670 --> 00:55:45,599
the answer is obvious

1455
00:55:49,510 --> 00:55:47,680
and i wish i remember who said that it

1456
00:55:51,910 --> 00:55:49,520
was someone who had taught him that and

1457
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:51,920
i think we could look at reframing

1458
00:55:55,430 --> 00:55:53,200
what we're doing

1459
00:55:58,870 --> 00:55:55,440
by carefully considering the words we

1460
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:58,880
use you know how do the words we use

1461
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:00,880
limit our conceptions

1462
00:56:04,230 --> 00:56:02,559
because words are reductionists right

1463
00:56:06,309 --> 00:56:04,240
the thoughts in our head

1464
00:56:08,789 --> 00:56:06,319
we speak some words they don't really

1465
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:08,799
reflect the thoughts in our head and we

1466
00:56:12,789 --> 00:56:11,280
use words you know kind of willy-nilly

1467
00:56:15,750 --> 00:56:12,799
and they're baked in

1468
00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:15,760
and it bakes in an idea so you know i

1469
00:56:20,549 --> 00:56:17,920
think we should really consider the

1470
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:20,559
words we're using and we need to be bold

1471
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:23,200
you know i go back to jim jeske's uh

1472
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:25,680
dragon king events

1473
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:28,799
uh and situation that could be happening

1474
00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:30,960
we really need to be bold it's not a

1475
00:56:36,069 --> 00:56:33,839
time to be conservative and many of us

1476
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:36,079
are at you know the age of reason right

1477
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:36,880
where

1478
00:56:43,349 --> 00:56:41,040
it's time to just really do what our

1479
00:56:44,470 --> 00:56:43,359
heart says and you know

1480
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:44,480
uh

1481
00:56:47,829 --> 00:56:46,480
and all the other sort of things be

1482
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:47,839
damned

1483
00:56:49,829 --> 00:56:48,799
um

1484
00:56:51,750 --> 00:56:49,839
and

1485
00:56:52,950 --> 00:56:51,760
you know so i would encourage people to

1486
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:52,960
you know who didn't have a chance to

1487
00:56:56,789 --> 00:56:55,599
take a look at all the videos or online

1488
00:56:58,789 --> 00:56:56,799
and uh

1489
00:57:00,309 --> 00:56:58,799
you know we i just wanted to list you

1490
00:57:01,430 --> 00:57:00,319
know we've talked about the forcing

1491
00:57:03,750 --> 00:57:01,440
function

1492
00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:03,760
we talked about light and em we talked

1493
00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:05,920
about vacuum fluctuations

1494
00:57:09,349 --> 00:57:07,680
we covered some new theories from

1495
00:57:11,430 --> 00:57:09,359
different viewpoints

1496
00:57:12,630 --> 00:57:11,440
uh we talked about testing of some of

1497
00:57:14,549 --> 00:57:12,640
these

1498
00:57:16,710 --> 00:57:14,559
unusual devices

1499
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:16,720
and today we talked about second law

1500
00:57:21,390 --> 00:57:19,440
violation so i i always believe that

1501
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:21,400
it's through this

1502
00:57:25,829 --> 00:57:24,319
multi-disciplinary multi-viewpoint

1503
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:25,839
sort of thing

1504
00:57:30,390 --> 00:57:27,760
that maybe we can come up with new

1505
00:57:33,750 --> 00:57:30,400
conceptions new ideas that we can then

1506
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:33,760
go off and and make something happen so

1507
00:57:38,470 --> 00:57:35,839
you know finally i just thank everybody

1508
00:57:41,750 --> 00:57:38,480
for participating and everyone who gave

1509
00:57:44,789 --> 00:57:41,760
talks and uh you know i just really

1510
00:57:46,870 --> 00:57:44,799
loved the open discussions and

1511
00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:46,880
and everyone seeking things out there

1512
00:57:49,990 --> 00:57:48,880
you know thank you very much appreciate

1513
00:57:51,910 --> 00:57:50,000
it

1514
00:57:53,829 --> 00:57:51,920
thank you for organizing

1515
00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:53,839
and thank everybody for being bold and

1516
00:57:58,789 --> 00:57:56,160
sharing yeah thank you

1517
00:57:58,799 --> 00:58:03,349
thank you charles and barrett

1518
00:58:06,230 --> 00:58:04,870
take care everyone

1519
00:58:07,109 --> 00:58:06,240
yeah thank you

1520
00:58:11,670 --> 00:58:07,119
goodbye

1521
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:13,510
thanks charles for everything yeah it

1522
00:58:18,950 --> 00:58:15,119
was amazing

1523
00:58:23,829 --> 00:58:22,230
thanks thanks

1524
00:58:26,710 --> 00:58:23,839
i look forward to seeing you all in

1525
00:58:27,990 --> 00:58:26,720
person next year be well yes

1526
00:58:32,470 --> 00:58:28,000
yes

1527
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:34,390
yeah charlie i think to move on from

1528
00:58:39,109 --> 00:58:37,119
here i think you know education is most

1529
00:58:40,470 --> 00:58:39,119
important i think you know publish some

1530
00:58:42,870 --> 00:58:40,480
of the papers

1531
00:58:45,349 --> 00:58:42,880
and then you are actually also uh

1532
00:58:47,910 --> 00:58:45,359
editing a special issue in energetic so

1533
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:47,920
academic at the moment the thermodynamic

1534
00:58:52,549 --> 00:58:49,680
and type the energy process anyone

1535
00:58:54,470 --> 00:58:52,559
interests some people will be greater uh

1536
00:58:55,430 --> 00:58:54,480
uh welcome and then we need to educate

1537
00:58:58,390 --> 00:58:55,440
because

1538
00:59:00,069 --> 00:58:58,400
it's the the the resistance in the the

1539
00:59:01,430 --> 00:59:00,079
scientific community is very strong

1540
00:59:04,470 --> 00:59:01,440
because they don't understand we need to

1541
00:59:06,390 --> 00:59:04,480
better educate thank you that's my point

1542
00:59:07,589 --> 00:59:06,400
yeah so anyone here from massachusetts

1543
00:59:10,789 --> 00:59:07,599
if anyone

1544
00:59:13,589 --> 00:59:10,799
have uh discovery uh top b energy

1545
00:59:16,470 --> 00:59:13,599
processes uh communicate with me email

1546
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:16,480
me and we were very happy to

1547
00:59:21,030 --> 00:59:19,440
very uh open minded look into your

1548
00:59:22,309 --> 00:59:21,040
discovery and

1549
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:22,319
communicate with

1550
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:36,630
thank you so much

1551
00:59:49,030 --> 00:59:47,589
okay well hopefully we can meet in

1552
00:59:51,589 --> 00:59:49,040
person next year

1553
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:51,599
yeah uh charlie and amber and and

1554
00:59:56,150 --> 00:59:54,400
professor model thank you this is good

1555
00:59:58,069 --> 00:59:56,160
good session

1556
00:59:59,190 --> 00:59:58,079
very nice session all right take care

1557
01:00:02,549 --> 00:59:59,200
everyone

1558
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:02,559
thanks thank you bye-bye charles hi bye

1559
01:00:05,109 --> 01:00:03,440
garrett

1560
01:00:07,829 --> 01:00:05,119
good morning oh

1561
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:07,839
charles can you send the recordings to

1562
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:10,319
annalisa

1563
01:00:14,309 --> 01:00:11,920
um

1564
01:00:16,230 --> 01:00:14,319
well you know they're super huge uh you

1565
01:00:19,030 --> 01:00:16,240
know they're gonna maybe she can pick

1566
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:19,040
them up off of youtube and download them

1567
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:20,240
or

1568
01:00:24,870 --> 01:00:22,240
uh maybe there's a dropbox way i'm not

1569
01:00:26,309 --> 01:00:24,880
very good at that um i'll ask her to to

1570
01:00:28,950 --> 01:00:26,319
initiate yeah i'm not really sure the

1571
01:00:30,630 --> 01:00:28,960
best way to do that excuse me charles i

1572
01:00:32,230 --> 01:00:30,640
can weigh in on that garrett she can

1573
01:00:35,190 --> 01:00:32,240
definitely download them from our

1574
01:00:37,030 --> 01:00:35,200
youtube channel if she has a downloading

1575
01:00:38,470 --> 01:00:37,040
software you're welcome to do that it's

1576
01:00:41,109 --> 01:00:38,480
all open source

1577
01:00:43,910 --> 01:00:41,119
and if you'd like the videos intact they

1578
01:00:45,670 --> 01:00:43,920
are very large files but uh i can do

1579
01:00:48,710 --> 01:00:45,680
dropbox or something like that if you

1580
01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:48,720
just want the files just let me know my

1581
01:00:52,710 --> 01:00:51,599
email is kate unlab.us and i'll put that

1582
01:00:54,870 --> 01:00:52,720
in the chat

1583
01:00:56,710 --> 01:00:54,880
okay thank you

1584
01:00:59,349 --> 01:00:56,720
charles kate is there any chance of

1585
01:01:03,190 --> 01:00:59,359
getting powerpoints and pdfs for we

1586
01:01:04,630 --> 01:01:03,200
folks who do things in non-linear order

1587
01:01:07,109 --> 01:01:04,640
well you know that's i'm going to be

1588
01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:07,119
asking the speakers who would allow

1589
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:09,760
their their presentations to be put up

1590
01:01:14,630 --> 01:01:12,400
on our website so we'll see uh you know

1591
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:14,640
i put my charts up there

1592
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:17,280
so that's something

1593
01:01:22,470 --> 01:01:20,319
really great thing yeah i could do mine

1594
01:01:23,990 --> 01:01:22,480
no problem yeah let's support that i

1595
01:01:26,470 --> 01:01:24,000
think if we think that if you sent out a

1596
01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:26,480
formal request to do so they might be

1597
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:28,319
much quickly forthcoming and you can put

1598
01:01:32,230 --> 01:01:30,240
them up on your website yeah yeah that's

1599
01:01:33,030 --> 01:01:32,240
i'm definitely going to do that robert

1600
01:01:35,430 --> 01:01:33,040
thank you

1601
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:35,440
29 hours of videos a bit much rather

1602
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:37,520
than randomly looking for good stuff in

1603
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:44,789
you can't text search a video as yet

1604
01:01:49,270 --> 01:01:47,040
robert we have transcripts of the chats

1605
01:01:50,870 --> 01:01:49,280
too that i can email you

1606
01:01:53,510 --> 01:01:50,880
well that would be wonderful absolutely

1607
01:01:55,109 --> 01:01:53,520
wonderful yeah

1608
01:01:56,950 --> 01:01:55,119
i'll get you back a diagram that

1609
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:56,960
summarizes all the connectivity how do

1610
01:02:01,270 --> 01:01:59,440
you like that i like everything about it

1611
01:02:03,109 --> 01:02:01,280
and i can't wait to see you again thanks

1612
01:02:07,670 --> 01:02:03,119
for participating

1613
01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:10,230
uh research

1614
01:02:15,829 --> 01:02:13,119
yeah say that again jasic

1615
01:02:17,270 --> 01:02:15,839
barney jack if you want to pronounce my

1616
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:17,280
polish uh

1617
01:02:37,349 --> 01:02:36,230
yes back to the root of the of our of

1618
01:02:40,870 --> 01:02:37,359
this

1619
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:40,880
master who is researching

1620
01:02:46,069 --> 01:02:43,920
so you can experience something

1621
01:02:48,789 --> 01:02:46,079
very very

1622
01:02:52,390 --> 01:02:48,799
beautiful

1623
01:02:54,069 --> 01:02:52,400
this zero entropy

1624
01:02:58,390 --> 01:02:54,079
zero entropy

1625
01:03:02,789 --> 01:02:58,400
it's perfect harmony beauty

1626
01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:02,799
love compassion everything is just

1627
01:03:05,510 --> 01:03:03,760
this

1628
01:03:07,190 --> 01:03:05,520
light

1629
01:03:11,510 --> 01:03:07,200
perfect

1630
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:13,510
i assure you

1631
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:15,520
it's something different

1632
01:03:21,630 --> 01:03:18,720
to think it out

1633
01:03:27,029 --> 01:03:21,640
as to experiences

1634
01:03:29,349 --> 01:03:27,990
yes

1635
01:03:31,270 --> 01:03:29,359
if possible

1636
01:03:32,230 --> 01:03:31,280
yes and

1637
01:03:37,029 --> 01:03:32,240
then

1638
01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:40,150
functions of our might

1639
01:03:44,870 --> 01:03:41,359
stays

1640
01:03:47,990 --> 01:03:44,880
just open for everything

1641
01:03:51,430 --> 01:03:48,000
the essence from everything

1642
01:03:53,190 --> 01:03:51,440
and we have to dissolve

1643
01:04:02,630 --> 01:03:53,200
the

1644
01:04:05,670 --> 01:04:02,640
between spirituality

1645
01:04:07,990 --> 01:04:05,680
and science

1646
01:04:10,829 --> 01:04:08,000
it happened in our history

1647
01:04:14,470 --> 01:04:10,839
several several

1648
01:04:15,750 --> 01:04:14,480
um centuries ago as the science appeared

1649
01:04:17,190 --> 01:04:15,760
emerged

1650
01:04:18,630 --> 01:04:17,200
so it said

1651
01:04:19,990 --> 01:04:18,640
no religion

1652
01:04:24,470 --> 01:04:20,000
it's not

1653
01:04:25,510 --> 01:04:24,480
science not

1654
01:04:27,910 --> 01:04:25,520
outer

1655
01:04:29,510 --> 01:04:27,920
order and we forgot

1656
01:04:35,910 --> 01:04:29,520
the master

1657
01:04:39,430 --> 01:04:35,920
and we can go the both direction

1658
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:39,440
i was struck by current as he told me

1659
01:04:41,589 --> 01:04:40,799
as he said

1660
01:04:44,309 --> 01:04:41,599
yeah

1661
01:04:48,630 --> 01:04:44,319
i'm not i'm percep i'm personally i'm

1662
01:04:50,789 --> 01:04:48,640
not professional in and quantum

1663
01:04:51,990 --> 01:04:50,799
theory but he said

1664
01:04:57,029 --> 01:04:52,000
in

1665
01:04:57,990 --> 01:04:57,039
quantum region there is zero entropy

1666
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:58,000
right

1667
01:05:01,990 --> 01:05:00,480
zero perfect harmony

1668
01:05:03,270 --> 01:05:02,000
perfect

1669
01:05:04,069 --> 01:05:03,280
so

1670
01:05:09,430 --> 01:05:04,079
uh

1671
01:05:11,910 --> 01:05:10,710
we are

1672
01:05:16,630 --> 01:05:11,920
this

1673
01:05:20,829 --> 01:05:19,990
i am with you 100 percent

1674
01:05:24,710 --> 01:05:20,839
yes

1675
01:05:25,829 --> 01:05:24,720
uh-huh i was i was taking there was a

1676
01:05:28,470 --> 01:05:25,839
team

1677
01:05:29,510 --> 01:05:28,480
i think in australia

1678
01:05:32,069 --> 01:05:29,520
our

1679
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:32,079
spiritual

1680
01:05:38,470 --> 01:05:36,000
teacher in berlin sent me a mail

1681
01:05:42,549 --> 01:05:38,480
if i could put a questionnaire about my

1682
01:05:43,990 --> 01:05:42,559
experience in um in my meditation

1683
01:05:45,190 --> 01:05:44,000
and

1684
01:05:51,829 --> 01:05:45,200
i just

1685
01:05:53,270 --> 01:05:51,839
several several uh

1686
01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:53,280
uh months

1687
01:06:00,069 --> 01:05:55,520
it was actually in september several

1688
01:06:03,430 --> 01:06:00,079
months later i became the the letter

1689
01:06:05,829 --> 01:06:03,440
from from this um

1690
01:06:07,190 --> 01:06:05,839
the man who organized this for the

1691
01:06:10,390 --> 01:06:07,200
scientists

1692
01:06:13,430 --> 01:06:10,400
and he he was so grateful

1693
01:06:14,710 --> 01:06:13,440
so my account was so uh

1694
01:06:16,230 --> 01:06:14,720
um

1695
01:06:19,190 --> 01:06:16,240
so uh

1696
01:06:21,670 --> 01:06:19,200
valid for him and

1697
01:06:23,829 --> 01:06:21,680
and they pushed these

1698
01:06:27,029 --> 01:06:23,839
research much forward

1699
01:06:28,069 --> 01:06:27,039
and there are many forgotten

1700
01:06:30,870 --> 01:06:28,079
uh

1701
01:06:31,990 --> 01:06:30,880
treasures in our culture

1702
01:06:33,510 --> 01:06:32,000
in our

1703
01:06:34,470 --> 01:06:33,520
experience

1704
01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:34,480
that we

1705
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:37,920
forgotten and it is tragic tragic

1706
01:06:39,750 --> 01:06:38,960
really

1707
01:06:41,990 --> 01:06:39,760
yes

1708
01:06:44,789 --> 01:06:42,000
we have to go back to the to this

1709
01:06:47,430 --> 01:06:46,390
with spirituality

1710
01:06:50,549 --> 01:06:47,440
yes

1711
01:06:53,349 --> 01:06:50,559
so we can only then we will go forward

1712
01:06:57,109 --> 01:06:53,359
but i see you all folks

1713
01:07:00,789 --> 01:06:57,119
say about your experiences and ex i i i

1714
01:07:03,349 --> 01:07:00,799
i see it it goes in this

1715
01:07:04,630 --> 01:07:03,359
perfect harmony

1716
01:07:09,270 --> 01:07:04,640
in this

1717
01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:09,280
uh sea ocean of energy of beauty

1718
01:07:14,390 --> 01:07:11,200
of freedom

1719
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:14,400
of everything yes this is our home we

1720
01:07:17,190 --> 01:07:15,599
are longing

1721
01:07:19,990 --> 01:07:17,200
to get there

1722
01:07:21,910 --> 01:07:20,000
there is no death there is no death

1723
01:07:25,029 --> 01:07:21,920
we are lo we are

1724
01:07:27,109 --> 01:07:25,039
when we lose this body

1725
01:07:30,470 --> 01:07:27,119
we will get another one

1726
01:07:33,750 --> 01:07:30,480
yes pointless to get the right one

1727
01:07:34,870 --> 01:07:33,760
and this and this is a karma

1728
01:07:41,029 --> 01:07:34,880
you

1729
01:07:43,510 --> 01:07:41,039
good thing and to help others

1730
01:07:48,069 --> 01:07:43,520
these key points of everything over

1731
01:07:48,079 --> 01:07:54,950
that's it yes

1732
01:07:59,670 --> 01:07:57,349
and we're all part of that

1733
01:08:01,510 --> 01:07:59,680
we are a part of that that

1734
01:08:02,950 --> 01:08:01,520
perfect entropy

1735
01:08:05,430 --> 01:08:02,960
no entropy

1736
01:08:10,950 --> 01:08:07,910
that is us that is us

1737
01:08:15,349 --> 01:08:10,960
yes we are part of this entropy we are

1738
01:08:16,709 --> 01:08:15,359
this entropy we are this entropy yes sir

1739
01:08:17,910 --> 01:08:16,719
right

1740
01:08:19,269 --> 01:08:17,920
yes

1741
01:08:22,709 --> 01:08:19,279
see you

1742
01:08:25,110 --> 01:08:22,719
yes send me an email or something please

1743
01:08:27,110 --> 01:08:25,120
i i have i had a

1744
01:08:29,510 --> 01:08:27,120
ideal uh

1745
01:08:31,510 --> 01:08:29,520
last day was so exciting for me i

1746
01:08:33,669 --> 01:08:31,520
couldn't sleep

1747
01:08:36,470 --> 01:08:33,679
too at night

1748
01:08:38,630 --> 01:08:36,480
say my ear

1749
01:08:39,430 --> 01:08:38,640
let's set up

1750
01:08:44,709 --> 01:08:39,440
the

1751
01:08:49,829 --> 01:08:47,910
i will write down and and and send you

1752
01:08:53,349 --> 01:08:49,839
how do you feel about

1753
01:08:55,910 --> 01:08:53,359
yes please do because i see in my

1754
01:08:58,950 --> 01:08:55,920
intuition it goes this

1755
01:09:00,390 --> 01:08:58,960
so so the quasi axioms

1756
01:09:05,110 --> 01:09:00,400
of

1757
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:05,120
time is being

1758
01:09:16,470 --> 01:09:14,390
yes and then you know there's the

1759
01:09:18,550 --> 01:09:16,480
the universe where there is no time i

1760
01:09:21,669 --> 01:09:18,560
mean that is there is a place where you

1761
01:09:24,149 --> 01:09:21,679
can be where there is no time and all

1762
01:09:25,669 --> 01:09:24,159
all of time is there

1763
01:09:28,709 --> 01:09:25,679
at once

1764
01:09:30,070 --> 01:09:28,719
but this is one aspect the second aspect

1765
01:09:31,749 --> 01:09:30,080
of the void

1766
01:09:34,709 --> 01:09:31,759
is a function

1767
01:09:36,550 --> 01:09:34,719
of our entropy

1768
01:09:37,829 --> 01:09:36,560
and these functions

1769
01:09:40,630 --> 01:09:37,839
are

1770
01:09:47,349 --> 01:09:40,640
limitless

1771
01:09:49,910 --> 01:09:47,359
this failure the other had the last

1772
01:09:51,430 --> 01:09:49,920
question why do we have so many so many

1773
01:09:52,630 --> 01:09:51,440
failures

1774
01:09:55,590 --> 01:09:52,640
because

1775
01:09:57,750 --> 01:09:55,600
there are many functions in our mind

1776
01:10:00,950 --> 01:09:57,760
this is only one mind

1777
01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:00,960
it tries this way this way this way this

1778
01:10:06,149 --> 01:10:04,480
way this way this way this way it is

1779
01:10:10,709 --> 01:10:06,159
everything okay

1780
01:10:14,070 --> 01:10:10,719
without failure you wouldn't be wiser

1781
01:10:15,030 --> 01:10:14,080
yeah we're here to experience

1782
01:10:17,189 --> 01:10:15,040
yes

1783
01:10:18,390 --> 01:10:17,199
so go forward

1784
01:10:19,590 --> 01:10:18,400
yes

1785
01:10:22,470 --> 01:10:19,600
thank you

1786
01:10:25,110 --> 01:10:22,480
beautiful

1787
01:10:33,430 --> 01:10:25,120
thank you so much it was really

1788
01:10:37,830 --> 01:10:35,830
thank you charlie uh charlie sometimes

1789
01:10:40,950 --> 01:10:37,840
in the maybe sometime when you have time

1790
01:10:43,030 --> 01:10:40,960
can i have individual meetings maybe a

1791
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:43,040
few weeks a week later or sometime when

1792
01:10:46,790 --> 01:10:44,880
you're convenient

1793
01:10:47,510 --> 01:10:46,800
yes certainly oh yeah yeah that would be

1794
01:10:49,110 --> 01:10:47,520
good

1795
01:10:50,630 --> 01:10:49,120
i would like to chat with you maybe on

1796
01:10:51,910 --> 01:10:50,640
zoom we can schedule something right

1797
01:10:55,990 --> 01:10:51,920
okay

1798
01:11:00,470 --> 01:10:56,000
wonderful session yes i think it's

1799
01:11:03,750 --> 01:11:01,910
one thing that's missing from this year

1800
01:11:05,990 --> 01:11:03,760
that it was very much always there the

1801
01:11:07,669 --> 01:11:06,000
first three years is you had a list of

1802
01:11:10,550 --> 01:11:07,679
contact info

1803
01:11:12,149 --> 01:11:10,560
and uh now we don't uh

1804
01:11:13,990 --> 01:11:12,159
can you pull together everybody's

1805
01:11:15,830 --> 01:11:14,000
contacting yes so we tried to gather

1806
01:11:17,270 --> 01:11:15,840
everyone's email we're going to be

1807
01:11:19,830 --> 01:11:17,280
putting that together

1808
01:11:21,110 --> 01:11:19,840
you need phone phone nowadays

1809
01:11:24,470 --> 01:11:21,120
yeah that would be helpful all the

1810
01:11:25,990 --> 01:11:24,480
follow-ups after this meeting yes yes

1811
01:11:28,390 --> 01:11:26,000
yeah that will be very helpful yes

1812
01:11:29,430 --> 01:11:28,400
contact information sure

1813
01:11:31,270 --> 01:11:29,440
yes

1814
01:11:32,229 --> 01:11:31,280
thank you both of you are wonderful i

1815
01:11:33,750 --> 01:11:32,239
think uh

1816
01:11:36,390 --> 01:11:33,760
thank you yeah

1817
01:11:38,070 --> 01:11:36,400
contact information very helpful yes yes

1818
01:11:40,229 --> 01:11:38,080
yes

1819
01:11:43,350 --> 01:11:40,239
to move on from here gennady did you

1820
01:11:46,950 --> 01:11:43,360
have something you would like to say or

1821
01:11:48,790 --> 01:11:46,960
uh me no no gennady is uh seems to be

1822
01:11:50,550 --> 01:11:48,800
here uh

1823
01:11:52,550 --> 01:11:50,560
listening i don't know i just wanted to

1824
01:11:53,510 --> 01:11:52,560
give you a chance

1825
01:11:57,030 --> 01:11:53,520
bye

1826
01:11:58,870 --> 01:11:57,040
hi thank you okay i'm gonna hang up now

1827
01:12:01,350 --> 01:11:58,880
take care everyone

1828
01:12:02,350 --> 01:12:01,360
such a pleasure bye robert so nice

1829
01:12:03,510 --> 01:12:02,360
hearing you again

1830
01:12:06,229 --> 01:12:03,520
[Music]

1831
01:12:08,390 --> 01:12:06,239
yes we will be meeting yeah sure yes

1832
01:12:10,709 --> 01:12:08,400
take care of my good friend evan

1833
01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:10,719
yes we will boy that's going to be fun

1834
01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:12,000
isn't it

1835
01:12:17,750 --> 01:12:15,360
you can imagine how excited i am

1836
01:12:18,870 --> 01:12:17,760
at 24 he's going to become a man that's

1837
01:12:20,950 --> 01:12:18,880
great

1838
01:12:22,950 --> 01:12:20,960
right right exactly and he'll get to

1839
01:12:24,950 --> 01:12:22,960
play casually

1840
01:12:28,070 --> 01:12:24,960
he loves the carriage house i think that

1841
01:12:30,870 --> 01:12:28,080
was so great so nice

1842
01:12:32,950 --> 01:12:30,880
isolated no roommates i told them this

1843
01:12:35,430 --> 01:12:32,960
is the ideal life you want skip over

1844
01:12:39,030 --> 01:12:35,440
roommates you know yeah yeah for an

1845
01:12:40,709 --> 01:12:39,040
introvert like us it's perfect right yes

1846
01:12:42,229 --> 01:12:40,719
he's only a mile and a half from our

1847
01:12:44,630 --> 01:12:42,239
house and he's right in between our

1848
01:12:48,310 --> 01:12:44,640
house and the tennis courts and so uh

1849
01:12:50,470 --> 01:12:48,320
he's gonna he's the karate

1850
01:12:53,350 --> 01:12:50,480
he'll miss karate but he'll play tennis

1851
01:12:55,990 --> 01:12:53,360
maybe he can find a new product

1852
01:12:57,910 --> 01:12:56,000
he'll find a club in there i'm sure yeah

1853
01:13:00,149 --> 01:12:57,920
he'll find him might be 20 miles away

1854
01:13:03,189 --> 01:13:00,159
but he'll find a club he's got a really

1855
01:13:05,510 --> 01:13:03,199
unique intelligence yeah yeah the the

1856
01:13:07,590 --> 01:13:05,520
main the main my main job the last six

1857
01:13:09,830 --> 01:13:07,600
months which was very successful was

1858
01:13:13,590 --> 01:13:09,840
getting him off video games

1859
01:13:18,390 --> 01:13:15,750
he loves his video games yes he does

1860
01:13:19,750 --> 01:13:18,400
well since we're gonna be building

1861
01:13:21,910 --> 01:13:19,760
since we're gonna be building the model

1862
01:13:23,990 --> 01:13:21,920
one of the ideas is to make it enjoyable

1863
01:13:25,669 --> 01:13:24,000
like a game so his love of gaming will

1864
01:13:27,270 --> 01:13:25,679
probably actually come in handy it'll

1865
01:13:28,790 --> 01:13:27,280
come in handy and the model we're

1866
01:13:30,470 --> 01:13:28,800
designing yes

1867
01:13:32,149 --> 01:13:30,480
all right well let's go make dinner yeah

1868
01:13:34,390 --> 01:13:32,159
and diane i just wanted to say i like

1869
01:13:35,910 --> 01:13:34,400
your thought yay let's be the violation

1870
01:13:37,270 --> 01:13:35,920
let's go

1871
01:13:42,630 --> 01:13:37,280
all right